I've done more reading and the more I read, the more and more I come to the conclusion that PJ (and Emmy) are perhaps selenium deficient despite supplementation. As far as Emmy, if her not settling despite 2 failed breeding attempts has anything to do with PJ not settling, Selenium is the conclusion I come to. It's the only thing that matches!
We're not in a selenium deficient area. However, the more goat people I talk to, the more I realize that here too, like in California, people supplement with selenium (and copper). The goats have only been here 6 months and this may not be enough time for the them to adjust to new levels if in fact there are adequate levels here. If they were low before we left, well, that's just another whole issue. However, if indeed the levels are insufficient in this area, they will still need supplementation.
It would seem very bizarre, and quite coincidental, that both mother and daughter are having somewhat of the same long cycles and not settling for it not to be related. From the massive amount of information I've read (see http://wvc.omnibooksonline.com/data/papers/2009_V549.pdf specifically), the long cycles (i.e. 26-28 days so far) relates to embryonic death due to failure to implant and not failure to fertilize or failure to ovulate at all. That would make perfect sense since 26-28 days between cycles falls right within that 3-4 week window. Because both of them at least seem to have the same problem with the long cycles. Hopefully the problems are related and I am not on a wild goose chase here.
Just because PJ has received her selenium, there could be higher levels of something somewhere binding with the selenium causing the deficiency kind of like iron bind with copper possibly causing deficiency in some cases (and it could be any number of things in regards to selenium!). I hope I have leveled things out with the steps I've taken. I more than likely will get a blood panel done pretty soon here as I will be sending off blood for CAE testing in the next few weeks and see what I'm working with here especially if one or both don't settle. I am really hoping though that I've been able to get things straight. Before the spring grass comes in, we can get a soil sample analyzed and a new water test done as well. I know our water is fairly hard (meaning it has quite a bit of calcium), and that could be the binder, it could be the copper, it could be any number of things!
So anyway...I hope they settle this season. If not, Emmy will have another year to grow and PJ will just have a year off. Not much harm in either I don't suppose. Emmy will just be a REALLY big dry yearling when she is bred.
On a different note, about 6 weeks ago I saw an ad for crabgrass hay locally. I've always fed mostly straight alfalfa because that was what was readily available in Ca. and it was the cheapest hay I could get when it came to quality. Here in Kansas there are so many more types of hays to choose from! Not enough people test their prairie grass around here and from the information I've read in general, it's not really good enough nutritionwise as the only source of food. I've been cutting their alfalfa with some brome hay but we're going to pick up some crabgrass hay today. I'm pretty excited about it!
From all the information I've read, if cut early in the season at the right time (before it goes to seed) it can have as high as 16% protein. While the calcium is only about half as much as alfalfa in general, I think it will actually be better for the goats than the brome I've been feeding AND it's cheaper! For the first time since we've arrived we'll be going with round bales. This route is so much cheaper than the small square bales we've been getting.
I've also read that crabgrass is highly digestible...because goat's metabolize their food very quickly, this should work very very well with them. I've yet to come across anyone who actually feeds crabgrass to goats. I've read a lot of horse people asking about it and from what I gather that it can be a good source of nutrition for those that are hard to keep.
I've not read about calcium requirements of goats for a long long time and I'll have to go over that again as I want to be sure they are getting adequate intake which will be supplied by the alfalfa. The grass hays they get is, more than anything, a snack but if I could further cut down on the alfalfa, I'd be happy!
I have finally found a few alfalfa suppliers and if these big round bales work out for us the cost savings will be significant. It's been an expensive 6 months with the goats since moving here.
Tuesday, December 28, 2010
Sunday, December 26, 2010
Adding insult to injury...
You don't know what easy street is until you aren't on it.
Emmy (PJ's daughter) came back into heat after 27 days post breeding. ARRRRRRRRRG! WHAT IS GOING ON? Is it related to PJ, is it completely not related? I am getting no closer to a conclusion, in fact, I am completely unequivocally confused.
I was leaning towards a uterine infection for PJ...I considered copper, I considered selenium, I considered it all. Was going to wait until she cycled again to start antibiotics to be sure she wasn't bred and I will still do that but now her daughter isn't settling. I KNOW it's not as issue of an infertile buck or not breeding at all. I confirm the breeding and insemination. It's not that.
I put Emmy in with Andy for the whole entire day on Friday. I gave Emmy, Andy, and PJ another round of Selenium. I may have missed Emmy last round since she can be a pain to catch at times. I didn't write it down, of course! I did write it down this time, not that it helps but what on earth could be going on? Is it one thing or is it everything? Is the fact that PJ was still nursing Emmy taking away from her selenium, giving it to Emmy but not in a high enough dose? Is this crazy? Am I crazy, are the goats crazy?
I hadn't noticed the girls weren't eating their minerals. I mean, I had but they don't always just drain the mineral feeder. Certain times of the year they'll really go after it, other times they won't touch. I figured it had been a while since I had refilled it and we've gone to a new mix since coming to Kansas since my minerals from Ca. were packed and I can't get it here so as kinda hoarding it. I decided a couple weeks ago to break out the old minerals and see if they'd want any....within a day they were all gone! I hadn't put out much, maybe 2 cups to share between 12 does. I ended up taking about a cup of the "old" and a cup of the new and mixing them, maybe they didn't like the new. They gobbled that up too. Gosh darnit! But seriously, I mean, everyone else has settled just fine but these two so what is it?
With the breeding season "winding down", is it creating the long cycles? I doubt it, everyone else is cycling normally.
I didn't want either of these does to be open this year. I wouldn't feel right selling PJ because I don't know what the breeding issue is. Ug...back to the drawing board.
Emmy (PJ's daughter) came back into heat after 27 days post breeding. ARRRRRRRRRG! WHAT IS GOING ON? Is it related to PJ, is it completely not related? I am getting no closer to a conclusion, in fact, I am completely unequivocally confused.
I was leaning towards a uterine infection for PJ...I considered copper, I considered selenium, I considered it all. Was going to wait until she cycled again to start antibiotics to be sure she wasn't bred and I will still do that but now her daughter isn't settling. I KNOW it's not as issue of an infertile buck or not breeding at all. I confirm the breeding and insemination. It's not that.
I put Emmy in with Andy for the whole entire day on Friday. I gave Emmy, Andy, and PJ another round of Selenium. I may have missed Emmy last round since she can be a pain to catch at times. I didn't write it down, of course! I did write it down this time, not that it helps but what on earth could be going on? Is it one thing or is it everything? Is the fact that PJ was still nursing Emmy taking away from her selenium, giving it to Emmy but not in a high enough dose? Is this crazy? Am I crazy, are the goats crazy?
I hadn't noticed the girls weren't eating their minerals. I mean, I had but they don't always just drain the mineral feeder. Certain times of the year they'll really go after it, other times they won't touch. I figured it had been a while since I had refilled it and we've gone to a new mix since coming to Kansas since my minerals from Ca. were packed and I can't get it here so as kinda hoarding it. I decided a couple weeks ago to break out the old minerals and see if they'd want any....within a day they were all gone! I hadn't put out much, maybe 2 cups to share between 12 does. I ended up taking about a cup of the "old" and a cup of the new and mixing them, maybe they didn't like the new. They gobbled that up too. Gosh darnit! But seriously, I mean, everyone else has settled just fine but these two so what is it?
With the breeding season "winding down", is it creating the long cycles? I doubt it, everyone else is cycling normally.
I didn't want either of these does to be open this year. I wouldn't feel right selling PJ because I don't know what the breeding issue is. Ug...back to the drawing board.
Thursday, December 16, 2010
Toil and Touble, Rants and Ravs and Thinking...lotsa thinking...and rambling.
Since September I've been wracking my brain as could be the cause for PJ not settling...I mentioned in my last post she's cycling but not settling. Now, being the thinker that I am I started wracking my brain as to why and my conclusion is, well, I am not closer to a conclusion!
Mineral deficiency is definitely an option. She's had her selenium recently (as in the beginning of breeding season) so I don't think it's that. I have seriously considered copper deficiency as that is something I battle off and on with her. I just recently got her to wean her doe kid and that was by force! She's completely dry now so hopefully that will improve her overall body condition.
So, here were my thoughts after some research. Actually, let me start with the scenario. We had a cool spring and summer before we left California. Literally my girls have been cycling since May! They may have slacked off when first coming to Kansas but they were cycling in August when we brought them to the new place. In September when I bred my first doe, PJ cycled so I bred her too...5 days later another cycle, I bred her again...and it continued with a 5 day cycle for about 3-4 weeks. Stupid me, I did think something of it but things were still super busy around here. But then, all the sudden the 5 day cycling stopped and I thought okay, she settled. No such luck, 21 days later, she cycled again. DARNIT. At this point I really thought it was my new buck and I was kind of nervous!
I wrote about how my milkers wouldn't let him breed. I was beginning to think something was wrong with him!
Alas, nothing was wrong as he bred FD and she settled fine but for a while there I was thinking, maybe these goats know something I don't. They didn't (I don't think anyway), a few of the milkers just really thought that Prince was more of a catch! Okay fine.
So, back to PJ. Just before she cycled again here recently after 28 days post breeding, I sat down and did some research on reasons why she would be cycling so oddly. Honestly, I came up with nothing concrete because nothing that I read matched exactly what was going on. I didn't know if she wasn't settling or was aborting or what! I did read about metritis (uterine infection) and most of the pieces fit but not entirely. One site I read on that said without a uterine flush with a "watered" down antibiotic during the height of their cycle when the cervix is most open is usually fruitless and you've lost a good doe. "GREAT!", I thought. Another site though said a good round of antibiotics via injection would do just fine. Most of what I read said that infections are often times residual from last kidding and I'm thinking, after her cocci issue this summer, I blasted her with enough antibiotics to nearly kill a hippo so I can't imagine an infection would be lingering...but then, I don't suppose it has to linger. It could be a fairly recent infection.
Anyway, for a while I did put the metritis thought to the back burner and decided to look towards copper once again and hoped that weaning her kid recently may just magically allow her to get bred. I also had another thought as well. Last year my breeding pens were set up differently. I also wasn't as busy last year so I would leave the doe with the buck all day, or as long as she seemed un-annoyed by him which could be several hours and I would take her out several times a day several days in a row during her cycle. This year, things are a bit different and I normally lock all but the one being bred up in the barn for several hours, let the buck out to do his business and I watch to make sure the breeding was successful and put everyone back in their perspective spots. The little girls I left in the pen with the buck for most of the day but everyone has been kinda of driveway style.
At any rate, I was thinking perhaps I wasn't catching PJ cycle just right and she was just a doe who needed the timing down. So, this cycling I went ahead and put her with Andy. It wasn't my first choice but when you keep doing the same thing over and over and get the same results, stop being insane and try something different! Or, at least that's my motto most of the time.
I wrote my goat mentor the other night and happened to mention the problem and she said give her a round of Pen for 7 days then a round of LA200 for 7 days. DANGIT, I wish I would have contacted her sooner! I just rebred PJ last week and with the way she's been cycling at 28 days, I would need to wait nearly another month to find out if she settled or not to start treatment. Good grief! I could start treatment now but if in the off chance she did settle, antibiotics like that (the LA200) could really cause some problems.
Waiting is both good and bad...more good than bad I guess. Bad in the fact that if she does have an infection and I can get it cleared up and can get her bred this year she's going to be a huge straggler behind the rest...as in, I will probably have like 8 weeks down time between all of them and her. It's not terrible, life goes on obviously and will be like the last hurrah for the year! One good thing is that if she doesn't settle by Andy I can re-breed her back to Moon. Course, I am not forgetting the fact that of course that I want her healthy!
That somewhat brings me to my next thoughts...I really think come Spring (or whenever she kids IF she does) I will be selling PJ. I am off and on about that...I can't ever make up my mind on anyone...except, when I do :). I'd like to see what she freshens with of course. My hope is for a longer bodied doe with more dairy character and longer legs. So far she's thrown some pretty cobby kids*. Her first freshening she was bred to Blackhoof 1 Strategy. A buck that threw some very interesting (in a good way) udders according to the appraiser this past June and comes from really nice genetics.
I bred Granite to her buck kid from that freshening and sold him off. I was extremely happy with the results from that breeding and kept both her doe and buck kid (Mea and Andy). Andy was mostly kept because, well he has spots. Not that he's got bad genetics either (if there are such a thing). It's just that his spots, I figured, are a good selling point when it comes to his kids...spots are HOT! I'm sorry if that sounds badly, but it is what it is you know? It would be one thing if he just has spots and had a dam with a crappy udder or what have you. But I believe he's got great genetics behind him. Now, Moon is Blackhoof 1 Strategy's half brother (different sire) and of course I could be totally wrong as genetics is just a luck of the draw, but breeding Moon to PJ will probably result in something similar to PJ's first daughter and that is not what I am looking for so maybe breeding her to Andy, despite the inbreeding factor of 14 point whatever %, would give me more of what I am looking for.
Udder genetics are not the issue. Without being snooty, I am not trying to improve the udder. Not that udder improvement would be unappreciated or unneeded (as no goat has a perfect udder); but the udder department, if there ever were such a thing, they don't need the most help in. In breeding her to Andy, my hope would be that Granite's long legs and body, and great feet would come through but I'd maintain PJ's body capacity and head with blending the dairy character from both (meaning, she's not too dairy (narrow) like I think Granite is but also not as wide (un-dairy) as PJ is...if we could only design goats with words :o).
Up until now, I figured Moon was my best buck of the 3 and I was playing the game of best buck will mean better kids. Not always, best buck means pairing with a doe that will make for improved kids or compliment each others genetics, etc. and ultimately make for better kids depending on what you want. I sometimes forget that. But if that's the philosophy I am following, perhaps Prince may be the better match! Oh, I really just don't know. I seriously hate options! They make me go mad! But as of today, and mind you this could change as soon as I hit "publish", I am thinking the "Andy card" may be a better option.
I guess I've gone on long enough. Sometimes I just have to throw up my hands because obviously I cannot control the world. Not that I try to control the WHOLE world. But occasionally I try to control my own. And even then, that's just not possible. So, I throw my hands up on this one.
I will wait to see if she settled. If she did, great. If not, she gets a couple rounds of antibiotics that I am sure she will just love me for! If I can get her bred this year, more's the merrier. If I can't, well, she'll grow fat and happy in next spring's pasture and we'll see about breeding her next fall. If that doesn't work...well, she may be freezer meat. I don't know what else to say. I'll leave you now with that lovely thought as I really have nothing else to add :o).
* I always feel kinda badly about talking "poorly" of goats as some breeders take it personally. Lest me remind you that breeding plans and outcomes are, as I said, luck of the draw. They aren't exactly always luck of the draw. I mean, you breed a doe with a cruddy udder to a buck who has the same genetics, you can't expect to get a great udder out of that. It's not like I hold breeders personally responsible if a breeding "goes bad". It's just not something that should be taken personal so therefore I don't entirely feel badly about talking about how I would like to improve a doe. I know breeding has a lot to do with personal preference and my personal preference is going to be different than someone elses. I breed for what I like to see, what I like to milk, etc. Someone once told me, breed for what you like to see in your barn and not what an appraiser likes to see or what will in the show ring UNLESS that's what you like to see. No point in having a herd full of animals you don't like to look at or milk or commune with. And she' right!
PJ has a great udder, and I like to look at it but I hate to milk her! Her orifices are so small and I could milk 4 regular orifice-d (noun turned verb :o) goats in the amount of time it takes to milk her and I hate that! She's got a sweet personality but her feet and back could be better. She could also use some height and the fact that I am always dealing with copper deficiency in her is really bringing me to my wits end! I will try bolusing her again in the early Spring and see how that goes. But ultimately, I'd like a more carefree animal as well! In talking about breeding up, you cannot excuse the fact that breeding for being hardy is not important...at least not here anyway. I lover her but love only goes so far with some of them.
Totally off on another tangent though which is somewhat unrelated...that brings me to Fluer, the doe I bought this past September. She's lovely in all respects but she's a boss! I asked about this as I always ask previous owners about temperament and was told she was kind of bottom of the pack. While I have no doubts she was there, my easy going group has allowed her to take over as herd queen and she sure takes it to extreme and I am not sure I want that kinda of temperament in my herd. I realize every herd will have a queen but not every herd needs a queen who would be happy if they were dead :o).
Mineral deficiency is definitely an option. She's had her selenium recently (as in the beginning of breeding season) so I don't think it's that. I have seriously considered copper deficiency as that is something I battle off and on with her. I just recently got her to wean her doe kid and that was by force! She's completely dry now so hopefully that will improve her overall body condition.
So, here were my thoughts after some research. Actually, let me start with the scenario. We had a cool spring and summer before we left California. Literally my girls have been cycling since May! They may have slacked off when first coming to Kansas but they were cycling in August when we brought them to the new place. In September when I bred my first doe, PJ cycled so I bred her too...5 days later another cycle, I bred her again...and it continued with a 5 day cycle for about 3-4 weeks. Stupid me, I did think something of it but things were still super busy around here. But then, all the sudden the 5 day cycling stopped and I thought okay, she settled. No such luck, 21 days later, she cycled again. DARNIT. At this point I really thought it was my new buck and I was kind of nervous!
I wrote about how my milkers wouldn't let him breed. I was beginning to think something was wrong with him!
Alas, nothing was wrong as he bred FD and she settled fine but for a while there I was thinking, maybe these goats know something I don't. They didn't (I don't think anyway), a few of the milkers just really thought that Prince was more of a catch! Okay fine.
So, back to PJ. Just before she cycled again here recently after 28 days post breeding, I sat down and did some research on reasons why she would be cycling so oddly. Honestly, I came up with nothing concrete because nothing that I read matched exactly what was going on. I didn't know if she wasn't settling or was aborting or what! I did read about metritis (uterine infection) and most of the pieces fit but not entirely. One site I read on that said without a uterine flush with a "watered" down antibiotic during the height of their cycle when the cervix is most open is usually fruitless and you've lost a good doe. "GREAT!", I thought. Another site though said a good round of antibiotics via injection would do just fine. Most of what I read said that infections are often times residual from last kidding and I'm thinking, after her cocci issue this summer, I blasted her with enough antibiotics to nearly kill a hippo so I can't imagine an infection would be lingering...but then, I don't suppose it has to linger. It could be a fairly recent infection.
Anyway, for a while I did put the metritis thought to the back burner and decided to look towards copper once again and hoped that weaning her kid recently may just magically allow her to get bred. I also had another thought as well. Last year my breeding pens were set up differently. I also wasn't as busy last year so I would leave the doe with the buck all day, or as long as she seemed un-annoyed by him which could be several hours and I would take her out several times a day several days in a row during her cycle. This year, things are a bit different and I normally lock all but the one being bred up in the barn for several hours, let the buck out to do his business and I watch to make sure the breeding was successful and put everyone back in their perspective spots. The little girls I left in the pen with the buck for most of the day but everyone has been kinda of driveway style.
At any rate, I was thinking perhaps I wasn't catching PJ cycle just right and she was just a doe who needed the timing down. So, this cycling I went ahead and put her with Andy. It wasn't my first choice but when you keep doing the same thing over and over and get the same results, stop being insane and try something different! Or, at least that's my motto most of the time.
I wrote my goat mentor the other night and happened to mention the problem and she said give her a round of Pen for 7 days then a round of LA200 for 7 days. DANGIT, I wish I would have contacted her sooner! I just rebred PJ last week and with the way she's been cycling at 28 days, I would need to wait nearly another month to find out if she settled or not to start treatment. Good grief! I could start treatment now but if in the off chance she did settle, antibiotics like that (the LA200) could really cause some problems.
Waiting is both good and bad...more good than bad I guess. Bad in the fact that if she does have an infection and I can get it cleared up and can get her bred this year she's going to be a huge straggler behind the rest...as in, I will probably have like 8 weeks down time between all of them and her. It's not terrible, life goes on obviously and will be like the last hurrah for the year! One good thing is that if she doesn't settle by Andy I can re-breed her back to Moon. Course, I am not forgetting the fact that of course that I want her healthy!
That somewhat brings me to my next thoughts...I really think come Spring (or whenever she kids IF she does) I will be selling PJ. I am off and on about that...I can't ever make up my mind on anyone...except, when I do :). I'd like to see what she freshens with of course. My hope is for a longer bodied doe with more dairy character and longer legs. So far she's thrown some pretty cobby kids*. Her first freshening she was bred to Blackhoof 1 Strategy. A buck that threw some very interesting (in a good way) udders according to the appraiser this past June and comes from really nice genetics.
I bred Granite to her buck kid from that freshening and sold him off. I was extremely happy with the results from that breeding and kept both her doe and buck kid (Mea and Andy). Andy was mostly kept because, well he has spots. Not that he's got bad genetics either (if there are such a thing). It's just that his spots, I figured, are a good selling point when it comes to his kids...spots are HOT! I'm sorry if that sounds badly, but it is what it is you know? It would be one thing if he just has spots and had a dam with a crappy udder or what have you. But I believe he's got great genetics behind him. Now, Moon is Blackhoof 1 Strategy's half brother (different sire) and of course I could be totally wrong as genetics is just a luck of the draw, but breeding Moon to PJ will probably result in something similar to PJ's first daughter and that is not what I am looking for so maybe breeding her to Andy, despite the inbreeding factor of 14 point whatever %, would give me more of what I am looking for.
Udder genetics are not the issue. Without being snooty, I am not trying to improve the udder. Not that udder improvement would be unappreciated or unneeded (as no goat has a perfect udder); but the udder department, if there ever were such a thing, they don't need the most help in. In breeding her to Andy, my hope would be that Granite's long legs and body, and great feet would come through but I'd maintain PJ's body capacity and head with blending the dairy character from both (meaning, she's not too dairy (narrow) like I think Granite is but also not as wide (un-dairy) as PJ is...if we could only design goats with words :o).
Up until now, I figured Moon was my best buck of the 3 and I was playing the game of best buck will mean better kids. Not always, best buck means pairing with a doe that will make for improved kids or compliment each others genetics, etc. and ultimately make for better kids depending on what you want. I sometimes forget that. But if that's the philosophy I am following, perhaps Prince may be the better match! Oh, I really just don't know. I seriously hate options! They make me go mad! But as of today, and mind you this could change as soon as I hit "publish", I am thinking the "Andy card" may be a better option.
I guess I've gone on long enough. Sometimes I just have to throw up my hands because obviously I cannot control the world. Not that I try to control the WHOLE world. But occasionally I try to control my own. And even then, that's just not possible. So, I throw my hands up on this one.
I will wait to see if she settled. If she did, great. If not, she gets a couple rounds of antibiotics that I am sure she will just love me for! If I can get her bred this year, more's the merrier. If I can't, well, she'll grow fat and happy in next spring's pasture and we'll see about breeding her next fall. If that doesn't work...well, she may be freezer meat. I don't know what else to say. I'll leave you now with that lovely thought as I really have nothing else to add :o).
* I always feel kinda badly about talking "poorly" of goats as some breeders take it personally. Lest me remind you that breeding plans and outcomes are, as I said, luck of the draw. They aren't exactly always luck of the draw. I mean, you breed a doe with a cruddy udder to a buck who has the same genetics, you can't expect to get a great udder out of that. It's not like I hold breeders personally responsible if a breeding "goes bad". It's just not something that should be taken personal so therefore I don't entirely feel badly about talking about how I would like to improve a doe. I know breeding has a lot to do with personal preference and my personal preference is going to be different than someone elses. I breed for what I like to see, what I like to milk, etc. Someone once told me, breed for what you like to see in your barn and not what an appraiser likes to see or what will in the show ring UNLESS that's what you like to see. No point in having a herd full of animals you don't like to look at or milk or commune with. And she' right!
PJ has a great udder, and I like to look at it but I hate to milk her! Her orifices are so small and I could milk 4 regular orifice-d (noun turned verb :o) goats in the amount of time it takes to milk her and I hate that! She's got a sweet personality but her feet and back could be better. She could also use some height and the fact that I am always dealing with copper deficiency in her is really bringing me to my wits end! I will try bolusing her again in the early Spring and see how that goes. But ultimately, I'd like a more carefree animal as well! In talking about breeding up, you cannot excuse the fact that breeding for being hardy is not important...at least not here anyway. I lover her but love only goes so far with some of them.
Totally off on another tangent though which is somewhat unrelated...that brings me to Fluer, the doe I bought this past September. She's lovely in all respects but she's a boss! I asked about this as I always ask previous owners about temperament and was told she was kind of bottom of the pack. While I have no doubts she was there, my easy going group has allowed her to take over as herd queen and she sure takes it to extreme and I am not sure I want that kinda of temperament in my herd. I realize every herd will have a queen but not every herd needs a queen who would be happy if they were dead :o).
Saturday, December 11, 2010
Change of plans: Fencing
I was at Tractor Supply the other day Christmas shopping. I found some brochures for high tensile fencing and "Wedge Lock" t post bracing supplies and techniques.
It wasn't until fairly recently that I even considered high tensile. Knowing how goats can scoot under even the lowest of fence rungs, I am/was scared to use it! I probably wouldn't be so concerned if we didn't live off a road where cars are moving anywhere from 40 to 70 miles per hour. It's not heavily traveled but it is traveled and that how our poor dog met his fate a month ago. There are pros and cons and when buying this property the more important pro was the road frontage we have for advertisement and the fact it's paved, unlike a lot of the roads in Kansas. I've lived 1/2 a mile down a dirt road that was lane livers responsibility to upkeep and while they did try to do that...winter rains made it such a mess. Not as bad as some I've seen mind you, but anyway, we wanted frontage and we have it. Kansas dirt roads, for the most part, are kept up well but still...our frontage is ideal.
The goats would have to walk a pretty good way to even reach the road. They are on the back portion of the property after all. And they are not like dogs in that they will go running out into the road but electric fencing still scared me. That is, until I actually found out exactly what high tensile is! I am in love, let me tell you.
If price wasn't attractive enough, the amount of installation work (or lack there of in comparison) and maintenance work and cost it takes certainly is! So, with that said, I've made a believer out of Jeremiah. And of course I've never used it to know if I'll be happy with it, I can't imagine I wouldn't be. If it keeps the goats in and lives up to its hype among those who have installed and used it, I'll consider myself happy.
Anyhoos, my plan to make a few pastures for next Spring has now shifted to fencing the entire property. If you'll remember, the perimeter fence is just 3 strand twisted wire. We have horses on 2 sides of the property and the twisted wire is taking a whooping from them. We first considered field fencing with an electric strand on top, then decided cattle panels may be better given the fact that we're treed on a good majority of the fence line and with the ice storms we get, the maintenance if a tree or limb were to fall on field fencing would be tremendous. While cattle panels are expensive, if something were to fall and crush it, we just go out and replace it, easy and simple, few tools required.
One pro to high tensile is that the space in between posts is anywhere from 30' to 100'! Because we're hilly, it's going to require more vertical posts than it would for a flat terrain, but one fact remains and that is that high tensile is designed to be stretched out over broad expanses (the farther the better, because if something were to hit it/run into it, with more length in the wire, there's more wire to absorb the shock of the impact.). This means that you do not want to tie it off in your corners like barbed wire or any stretched fencing. High tensile is designed to be stretched, it's springy and if it begins to sag anywhere, all that's required is a simple tightening of the in line strainer installed in each wire.
I've been walking the property line in an effort to learn more about it for one, and for two to get more exercise and I really think that high tensile will be well suited for our application. Providing we string the wires at the appropriate heights, it will solve a number of problems. For one, it will keep the goats in, first and foremost that's the most important. For two, it will keep the neighbor's horses off (since we will also be electrifying this fence) and for three, apparently if we string it high enough, it will keep the deer out. I know for sure our eastern portion of the property is a deer highway. I don't mind so much except for the fact that deer can carry meningeal worm and quite frankly, I don't exactly want to be dealing with that and my goats. Additionally, we hope to have a big garden next year as well and while that may require another few wires on top, it's really quite attractive all the way around.
I expect, electric fencer not included, that to fence the whole property to include six 4,000 spools of 12.5 gauge class III wire, the few posts we may need, and all the tools (in line strainer, ratcheting tool, etc.) to cost about $1,000. There should be enough wire left over to be able to cross fence for 4-6 pastures. But that can come later on if need be. The corner posts are all still very good. I was researching corner insulators last night
. I assume most people installing high tensile wrap the post with the the wire (that has tube insulating encasing where touches the posts to keep it from grounding out), but I would like to do more reading up on ceramic insulators which would allow us to utilize the corner posts that are already installed. I have no idea how long they've been there but I would guess the better portion of 20 years! It would be grand if they lasted another 20+ but by using a corner insulator instead of wrapping the wire around corners, we could unhook the fence fairly easily and replace the post and re-tighten instead of having to cut the wire and splice then re-tighten.
At any rate, I'm really excited to pull this together come spring.
It wasn't until fairly recently that I even considered high tensile. Knowing how goats can scoot under even the lowest of fence rungs, I am/was scared to use it! I probably wouldn't be so concerned if we didn't live off a road where cars are moving anywhere from 40 to 70 miles per hour. It's not heavily traveled but it is traveled and that how our poor dog met his fate a month ago. There are pros and cons and when buying this property the more important pro was the road frontage we have for advertisement and the fact it's paved, unlike a lot of the roads in Kansas. I've lived 1/2 a mile down a dirt road that was lane livers responsibility to upkeep and while they did try to do that...winter rains made it such a mess. Not as bad as some I've seen mind you, but anyway, we wanted frontage and we have it. Kansas dirt roads, for the most part, are kept up well but still...our frontage is ideal.
The goats would have to walk a pretty good way to even reach the road. They are on the back portion of the property after all. And they are not like dogs in that they will go running out into the road but electric fencing still scared me. That is, until I actually found out exactly what high tensile is! I am in love, let me tell you.
If price wasn't attractive enough, the amount of installation work (or lack there of in comparison) and maintenance work and cost it takes certainly is! So, with that said, I've made a believer out of Jeremiah. And of course I've never used it to know if I'll be happy with it, I can't imagine I wouldn't be. If it keeps the goats in and lives up to its hype among those who have installed and used it, I'll consider myself happy.
Anyhoos, my plan to make a few pastures for next Spring has now shifted to fencing the entire property. If you'll remember, the perimeter fence is just 3 strand twisted wire. We have horses on 2 sides of the property and the twisted wire is taking a whooping from them. We first considered field fencing with an electric strand on top, then decided cattle panels may be better given the fact that we're treed on a good majority of the fence line and with the ice storms we get, the maintenance if a tree or limb were to fall on field fencing would be tremendous. While cattle panels are expensive, if something were to fall and crush it, we just go out and replace it, easy and simple, few tools required.
One pro to high tensile is that the space in between posts is anywhere from 30' to 100'! Because we're hilly, it's going to require more vertical posts than it would for a flat terrain, but one fact remains and that is that high tensile is designed to be stretched out over broad expanses (the farther the better, because if something were to hit it/run into it, with more length in the wire, there's more wire to absorb the shock of the impact.). This means that you do not want to tie it off in your corners like barbed wire or any stretched fencing. High tensile is designed to be stretched, it's springy and if it begins to sag anywhere, all that's required is a simple tightening of the in line strainer installed in each wire.
I've been walking the property line in an effort to learn more about it for one, and for two to get more exercise and I really think that high tensile will be well suited for our application. Providing we string the wires at the appropriate heights, it will solve a number of problems. For one, it will keep the goats in, first and foremost that's the most important. For two, it will keep the neighbor's horses off (since we will also be electrifying this fence) and for three, apparently if we string it high enough, it will keep the deer out. I know for sure our eastern portion of the property is a deer highway. I don't mind so much except for the fact that deer can carry meningeal worm and quite frankly, I don't exactly want to be dealing with that and my goats. Additionally, we hope to have a big garden next year as well and while that may require another few wires on top, it's really quite attractive all the way around.
I expect, electric fencer not included, that to fence the whole property to include six 4,000 spools of 12.5 gauge class III wire, the few posts we may need, and all the tools (in line strainer, ratcheting tool, etc.) to cost about $1,000. There should be enough wire left over to be able to cross fence for 4-6 pastures. But that can come later on if need be. The corner posts are all still very good. I was researching corner insulators last night
. I assume most people installing high tensile wrap the post with the the wire (that has tube insulating encasing where touches the posts to keep it from grounding out), but I would like to do more reading up on ceramic insulators which would allow us to utilize the corner posts that are already installed. I have no idea how long they've been there but I would guess the better portion of 20 years! It would be grand if they lasted another 20+ but by using a corner insulator instead of wrapping the wire around corners, we could unhook the fence fairly easily and replace the post and re-tighten instead of having to cut the wire and splice then re-tighten.
At any rate, I'm really excited to pull this together come spring.
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